Is the Shroud of Turin really the burial cloth of Jesus after his crucifixion? Dale Glover and Luis Dizon join Reason & Theology to discuss the matter with a detailed presentation!
YouTube Video = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6va21mvBE4
Reason & Theology YouTube Video = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCHIVo8vDYY&t=2s
Rumble Video = https://rumble.com/v3nduva-reason-and-theology-the-truth-about-the-shroud-of-turin-w-dale-glover-and-l.html
Audio Only Link = https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/real-seeker-ministries/episodes/Reason–Theology-The-Truth-About-the-Shroud-of-Turin-w-Dale-Glover-and-Luis-Dizon-e2a84mj
Guy Powell: Applying the “MRF Approach” to the Shroud (Dale as Guest)
I guest starred on Guy Powell’s Podcast to go over an illustration of the application of my “MRF Approach” for assessing various Shroud image forming mechanisms.
YouTube Video = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvfON9ceta0
Rumble Video = https://rumble.com/v3rwinm-guy-powell-applying-the-mrf-approach-to-the-shroud-dale-as-guest.html
Audio Only Link = https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/real-seeker-ministries/episodes/Guy-Powell-Applying-the-MRF-Approach-to-the-Shroud-Dale-as-Guest-e2b40d9
Recommended Sources (for further study);
0) General Sources;
Barrie Schwortz most helpful site on Shroud = https://shroud.com/
STURP Project Information = https://shroud.com/78exam.htm
Peer-Reviewed Papers on Shroud for free = https://shroud.com/78papers.htm
A) Previous Blogs (with scholarly papers and sources) & Videos on Topics in this Video;
Carbon Dating & Hungarian Pray Codex Shows;
Shroud Wars- Panel Review Show (Part 1): The Dating of the Shroud (with Hugh Farey & Bob Rucker) = https://realseekerministries.wordpress.com/2022/10/28/shroud-wars-panel-review-show-part-1-the-dating-of-the-shroud-with-hugh-farey-bob-rucker/
YouTube Video = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuotG03La00
Shroud Wars: Panel Review Summary Show #1 (Part 2 of 4)- The Medieval Historical Documents (1389 Memo and Others) & Hungarian Pray Manuscript/Codex = https://realseekerministries.wordpress.com/2023/01/06/shroud-wars-panel-review-summary-show-1-parts-1-3/
Shroud Wars: Panel Review (Part 4 & 4B)- The Shroud’s History from 49 A.D.-1350 A.D. = https://realseekerministries.wordpress.com/2023/02/17/shroud-wars-panel-review-part-4-the-shrouds-history-from-49-a-d-1350-a-d/
The Sudarium of Oviedo;
Shroud Wars: The Sudarium of Oviedo & the Shroud of Turin (with Expert César Barta)
The Great Shroud Debate- Dale (Pro Shroud) vs. Jordan from Reason to Doubt (Shroud Skeptic) + Review Show with SJ Thomason & Joe Marino
Giulio Fanti Coins & 4 Physical Dating Tests (including NEW 2022 X-Ray/WAXS Dating to 1st Century);
Shroud Wars: New Evidence on Dating & Forming the Shroud’s Images (with Giulio Fanti, Robert Siefker & Bob Rucker)
Shroud Wars: Panel Review (Part 3)- Scientific & Textile Dating Evidence (with Russ Breault, Bob Rucker, Hugh Farey & Giulio Fanti)
Biblical References to the Shroud Images;
Shroud Wars: Panel Review (Part 5)- The Bible & the Shroud (Larry Stalley & Ben Witherington)
Shroud Images (Scientific Evidences);
Shroud Wars: Panel Review (Part 8)- “MRF’s” & the Painting Hypothesis + SJ Thomason Bonus Show
Shroud Solo Show (Part 11)- Sunlight-Based Hypotheses (Proto-Photo, Shadow & Solar Reflex Models) + Bonus Part 11B on Boiling and Painting Emulsion Methods
Shroud Solo Show (Part 13 & Part 13B)- Direct Contact Mechanisms & the 2018 Blood Pattern Analysis Experiments
b) My 300-Page Shroud Chapter & Excel Table (for free);
Shroud of Turin: My Own 300-Page Book on the Evidence (for Free)
Rough Copy of my 300-page Shroud Chapter & Associated Documents (as of May 2018- does not include some of my more recent updates to the chapter) =
Also see another helpful “All-in-One” Source;
powerpoint-version-4.0-rob-seifkart-updatedDownload
c) VERTICIALLY MAPPED WRAPPING DISTORTIONS- VERTICAL ENCODATION PATH;
Real Seeker Ministries 
A fan of the Reason and Theology show made this substantive comment to which I responded. Here is what Millingtorres said;
My (Dale’s) Reply to Him;
Thanks for a thoughtful critique there, for what it is worth, I totally agree with your last statement about the problematic nature of having to make a condensed generalized case, but it is important for people who are new to understand what the claims are first and given I had 20 mins for history and 20 mins for the science, I inevitably had to be selective in what I presented. But yes, my hope in giving the unnuanced Pro-Side presentation here today is maybe to spark interest in doing future deeper shows where both sides are represented more fully as again, this has to be about truth. To that end, I am taking some time to prepare a Blog with more detailed sources for people and Michael said he would post it on his Vid description and additionally, I’ve done some Shroud Panel reviews going into a lot more detail into the pro and con evidences of the Hungarian Pray Codex- see Real Seekers on YouTube my Panel Review Playlist videos entitled, “Shroud Wars- Panel Review Show (Part 1): The Dating of the Shroud (with Hugh Farey & Bob Rucker)” & then my own solo analysis entitled, “Shroud Wars: Panel Review Summary Show #1 (Part 2 of 4)- Memo/Medieval Documents & the Pray Codex”.
That said, you are entirely right that I misspoke when I said skeptics have no response for the L-Shaped holes and I think I grit my teeth a little as I heard those words come out there lol. What I wanted to say is that there is no “good” explanation for them. Yes they are on the underside just as with the Shroud though due to the crosses they are “geometrically challenged” as one Shroud skeptic once put it and thus I focus on the upper side ones that clearly depict the L-shape. That said, it is not a very good explanation to posit that these holes are merely decorative like the circles on the angels wings for example and even the world’s most knowledgeable Shroud skeptic Hugh Farey agrees these holes on the “cloth” serve no decorative or functional purpose in the position they are in in the same way they do on the angels wing decorations; so I don’t think explanation is a very good one, but it does exist I acknowledge.
As to your question of images in the top panel shroud underneath Jesus’ body- there are no images there simply because they formed at the Resurrection and that scene depicts Jesus body being wrapped in it before any images existed. Again due to time limits, I did not present the Shroud skeptics counter case whereby the bottom rectangles are not the Shroud but depictions of Jesus’ tomb which does indeed conform to similar Byzantine images of Jesus’ tomb from this time (this prior prob counter-argument I think is the most powerful one on the skeptical case against the Pray Codex but again there are counters to this argument in the scholarly literature as well).
As for the ruffled part, maybe, but some have argued that these show an unraveling of the Shroud into strips to bind the body and/or Bob Rucker has an interesting theory (that I disagree with) that there is a knife on that part and that it appears Mary’s sleeve looks like a cloth with a face on it on the right side, meaning they cut out the face of Jesus as per the Mandylion being primarily known as a face image only for most of it’s history. As to “contemporaneous images of sarcophagus which have similar geometric patterns with the lid at an angle”- no I’m going to say this isn’t true here as depictions of onyx marble are quite different to the patterns seen here and Bob Rucker has found historical patterns of herringbone cloth including on the Shroud that perfectly resemble this step like pattern- so I still agree with textile expert Dr. Methchild Flury-Lemberg who actually studied the Shroud in person as the leader of the 2002 Restoration project that whoever painted the Codex must have seen the Shroud based on the weave pattern depictions.
God bless you as well and great counters- you are right that had I more time than 20 mins to present on the history then I would have gone over the qualifications, nuances and counter evidences that you allude to there as I myself am only probably in the low to mid 50% range in terms of my own conviction that the Pray Codex was based on the Shroud all things considered- it’s sufficient to believe on my part, but it is very weak evidence at best that is barely more probable than not in my books- still it is part of the Pro-Shroud case and I think deserved to be presented for people new to the Shroud to consider 🙂
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Also on rigour mortis and the long arms- Teddi has sighted a 150 year study that there are extended phases of rigour mortis and resetting and also the body was hunched over. Also some say the face is too thin, no that is only an optical illusion of the 1931 photos- Barrie 1978 photos don’t show a thin face and I posted those in my first interviews with him on my Blog for people to see for themselves.
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I forgot to mention on the long arms, it is important to note that the body may be hunched over in rigour mortis as well. Also I forgot to show the side strip as a multiple cloth in John 20 video- if you wish to see it just search on YouTube for Shroud Of Turin – BBC Documentary and see approx. the 42 min to 48 min mark for that part.
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